tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post2316969600321227233..comments2024-03-26T10:03:51.827+13:00Comments on Karl du Fresne: Communists "not influential"? Pardon me?Karl du Fresnehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05054853925940134404noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-76950272991003007412008-07-28T15:33:00.000+12:002008-07-28T15:33:00.000+12:00In 1980 P.M. Muldoon tried to do a "Joe McCarthy" ...In 1980 P.M. Muldoon tried to do a "Joe McCarthy" by publishing names of SUP members active in the union movement. It was all a "damp squib" as rank and file workers knew already the politics of their officials, recognised their worth as solid unionists, and continued to vote for them in union elections. SUP membership was insignificant when matched with their ongoing dedication to the union movement.<BR/><BR/>Regarding Bill Sutch, I think it is all rather sad - he was likely duped or even self deluded, but a spy? Someone so dedicated to building New Zealand as a free and independent nation just couldn't be a spy.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07055392172776990255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-79612207173700308622008-07-25T12:26:00.000+12:002008-07-25T12:26:00.000+12:00Coupla things:Karl has made some of the points I w...Coupla things:<BR/><BR/>Karl has made some of the points I would have made so all I'll do is endorse them.<BR/><BR/>I'd been reading a bit about Sutch (for completely unrelated project) in Brian Easton's 'Nationbuilders' only about a month before the Sutch SIS File was released. Easton's writing is aimed at emphaising there was more to Sutch than that bloke who got arrested and then acquitted for spying, and it does widen the picture somewhat.<BR/><BR/>Having read the SIS file I'm not quite convinced Sutch was spying, but I do have to wonder what the hell he was doing. <BR/><BR/>I think the SIS File has been somewhat mis-represented. Several entries in the 1940s and 1950s stress there was no reason to think Sutch was disloyal, but the combination of his strong Soviet sympathy and his rather odd character meant he was a possible security risk. <BR/><BR/>The one thing that comes through - far more strongly than I would have thought - is the extent to which Sutch was a Soviet sympathiser and propagandist. <BR/><BR/>Two things: in the file is transcirpts of radio talks he gave for the NZBC in 1950. They were never broadcast. The thrust of them is that places like Poland and Hungary were now free, for the first time in their histories. Also, it was the 'workers' who fought the occupying Nazis: the aristocrats and merchants classes (these are Sutch's terms) were all collaborators. <BR/><BR/>Earlier, Sutch had written of trekking through Europe in the early 30s and seeing people starving in places like France. He then trekked across Russia. It's a matter of historical fact that the Ukraine and similar regions were then suffering the worst man-made famine in history. This famine was a result of deliberate Soviet policy. It was also written about at the time: Malcolm Muggeridge, then a left-wing journalist, visited Russia at that time and, having expected to find paradise on earth, came away shaken and disillusioned. <BR/><BR/>Sutch mentioned nothing of this. Only the poverty and hunger in non-Soviet countries. <BR/><BR/>This is why people like Stephen's relatives believed in communism in good faith - because people in a position to know, like Sutch, misled them.<BR/><BR/>One other thing: Sutch was highly critical of NZ's entering World War II. He was on the Army Reserve but resigned his commssion in August 1939 - four days after the Soviets and Nazis signed a non-aggression pact which led to the invasion and bloodbath in Poland. He spoke at several meetings of Nazi symapthisers in Wellington shortly after the outbreak of war. But when Germany invaded Russia he dropped his criticism. <BR/><BR/>On the spying thing: I'm not convinced he was a spy, but I'm even less convinced by the explanations offered for his series of meetings with a Soviet official in the dead of night in out-of-the-way places. <BR/><BR/>The main one is that the official wanted to defect. That just doesn't make sense. Think about this: why would someone wanting to defect seek out a known Soviet sympathiser to defect to? It would be the riskiest possible way to defect. (I'm not saying Sutch would have handed the guy back: I'm just saying a Russian wanting to defect is unlikely to take that risk).<BR/><BR/>The most charitable conclusion I can come to - and I don't think this is at all unlikely - is that Sutch was old and was going a bit dotty. He died of cancer about a year after the arrest and he would not have been the first, or the last, person to have their mind go a bit funny in the early stages of the disease.<BR/><BR/>On a wider, philosophical note in response to TruthSeeker: Capitalism doesn't claim to be perfect. It isn't an ideology at all, in fact, although some people (both pro and anti) have tried to turn it into one.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02397480700716013852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-44286049604918209022008-07-23T09:14:00.000+12:002008-07-23T09:14:00.000+12:00I don't know Trevor Louden but I understand he's b...I don't know Trevor Louden but I understand he's been monitoring the New Zealand Left for years and accumulated a vast amount of information. An author might well decide to treat his material with some caution, but it would be silly to ignore a resource like that. As for Graeme Hunt's books, his biography of Walsh is damned-near impeccable; and while some of the material in Spies and Revolutionaries has been challenged, much of it is corroborated by other published sources.Karl du Fresnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05054853925940134404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-16977710121192986042008-07-22T22:04:00.000+12:002008-07-22T22:04:00.000+12:00stephen: I agree. That Communism was corrupted by ...stephen: I agree. That Communism was corrupted by criminals doesn't necessarily discredit communism. That capitalism has also been corrupted by criminals doesn't mean capitalism is discredited. <BR/><BR/>Either case shows us that criminals will corrupt any system for their own benefit. The trick it is to identify the criminals early on and stop them. Unfortunately, they tell a lot of lies and enough people believe them that they get away with it. <BR/><BR/>The only thing wrong with all these "perfect" systems is the people who operate them. <BR/><BR/>We need a moral and ethical compass and the integrity to live by it. That's the only workable system whether you want to own everything or give away everything you own.Steve Withershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04221815213521767405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-8826797804882258182008-07-22T21:58:00.000+12:002008-07-22T21:58:00.000+12:00Communists and socialists were undoubtedly influen...Communists and socialists were undoubtedly influential in New Zealand's recent history. <BR/><BR/>I just wouldn't believe anything Graeme Hunt had to say about it unless it was independently verified by a historian for whom I do have respect. <BR/><BR/>Hunt and Michael Bassett should be flatmates. Between them they would (almost) have two eyes.Steve Withershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04221815213521767405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-47208542032516224292008-07-22T16:57:00.000+12:002008-07-22T16:57:00.000+12:00Couple of points:- first, I actually bought Hunt's...Couple of points:<BR/><BR/>- first, I actually bought Hunt's book a couple of weeks ago. I lost confidence in him when I read his warm thanks to Trevor Loudon, who is a barking mad paranoiac. If Hunt thinks he is a viable source then I don't think we can place much faith in Hunt.<BR/><BR/>- second, as a relative of some communist 50's unionists I can tell you that they rationalised thusly: they simply didn't believe that what they heard about Stalin was true; and to the extent that they did, they believed that harsh measures were made necessary by the continual attacks of capitalism; and when they broke with Stalin (or Mao or any other authoritarian criminal) they always blamed the man, not the ideology. In other words, they thought as most people do when their heroes turn out to be villains.stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04486889878636801969noreply@blogger.com