tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post7558907657413378724..comments2024-03-26T10:03:51.827+13:00Comments on Karl du Fresne: Holding the line against the neo-wowsersKarl du Fresnehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05054853925940134404noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-91105057154622176492011-11-24T19:50:14.037+13:002011-11-24T19:50:14.037+13:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ben Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15851833007316131778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-33738362883692756022011-11-24T19:50:07.216+13:002011-11-24T19:50:07.216+13:00Also, I don't think overall per capita alcohol...Also, I don't think overall per capita alcohol consumption is really the best indicator of whether alcohol-related harms are being addressed or not. Most of the leading public health researchers (e.g. Fiona Measham and Kevin Brain in the UK) would actually agree with your points about 'moral panic', but that the drinking patterns have fundamentally changed so that there's a situation where there's 'more alcohol down fewer throats'. These types of patterns don't show up on those kind of statistics because the overall level of alcohol consumption is more or less the same and may even be decreasing, but the intense concentration of alcohol consumption in particular groups of society (e.g. young people) is still very damaging. I know the point of your article was to introduce balance to the discussion, and I think it did a good job of that, but I think these are probably quite important considerations in any alcohol-related discussion and they shouldn't be downplayed TOO much. I think it's good to show people the other side of the story, but at the same time I think it's important to avoid using so much rhetorical material that they end up being ignorant of the reality of the situation.<br /><br />Overall though I thought your article provided some really thought provoking material and provided a good 'counter voice' to the material that dominates alcohol discussions. In the course of writing my thesis I've been making a point of emphasising that 'heavy use' (though vague, it's still a useful term I think) is the real problem, not the mere fact of use. I do think that there is still a lot of room for improvement of the alcohol situation in NZ. I chose to research this topic because being at university for 5 years, I've seen how students drink (in terms of quantity and frequency - students really appear to dedicate themselves to getting very drunk on a regular basis) and to be honest it was quite scary. I also saw similar behaviour while I was at high school. Both my parents drink moderately (glass of wine / a beer with dinner each night), so I wasn't raised in a particularly 'wowsery' environment. I have a big night a few times a year but don't really drink much outside of that. The inspiration for my thesis were the scenes after those night's out down Courtenay Place at 3am on a Sunday, it really made me take notice of how weird it is that that kind of behaviour is such a big part youth culture. A minority in terms of the total population yes, but still a very important health and social issue in my view. I think it's easy to discount this group as a 'minority of excess users' that isn't reflective of overall society, but actually being immersed in that group of people kinda makes you see how messy and dangerous the activities of that minority can be.<br /><br />I had to give the thesis a work focus given the school I'm enrolled in. I think work is quite an important factor that is missing in a lot of the alcohol discussions. Given that most adults spend 5 days a week, 9 hours a day at work, I think it deserves more of a place in discussions about people's drinking behaviours. Hopefully I can go some way to providing some new and more sociological / anthropological insight into NZers reasons for alcohol use, as you suggest at the end of your Listener article.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />BenBen Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15851833007316131778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-79401394113255561492011-11-24T19:49:40.845+13:002011-11-24T19:49:40.845+13:00Hi Karl,
I know I'm very late with this but I...Hi Karl,<br /><br />I know I'm very late with this but I'm a 22 year old Masters student at Victoria University and I just came across your article in the Sept - Oct 2010 Listener today. I'm doing my thesis on the relationship between corporate work and alcohol use, hence why I found your article to be a really interesting read. You made some valid points, I think the 'moral panic' in alcohol discussions is often overdone to the point where it doesn't actually reflect reality. <br /><br />In a couple of areas I thought some of the statistics I thought were a bit off. At the end of the day I think there's a set of statistics to support any argument, but here are a few areas of your own article that I thought were inconsistent with my own findings. One was the comment about the AA admitting that lowering the BAC wouldn't do much in terms of reducing road accidents caused by drunk drivers. The AA actually supports a comprehensive review of the current BAC on it's website (http://www.aa.co.nz/motoring/aa-torque/speaking-up/safer-drivers/alcohol/), so I feel they were a bit misrepresented in your article. They don't out-and-out say lowering the BAC would be effective, but it's implied I think by the other statements they make.<br /><br />Also, the statistics I've been using from the Ministry of Transport report is that even at the current BAC, a male over 30 years old is 16x more likely to be involved in a fatal accident than they would be had they not consumed any alcohol (http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/Alcohol-drugs-crash-fact-sheet-2010.pdf). So I don't think it's acceptable for legislation to allow that risk to be legally taken by individuals, especially when accidents can cause harm to others aside from the drunk driver, and all it takes is having one drink instead of two.Ben Walkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15851833007316131778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-45122772946144568422010-09-30T11:18:23.178+13:002010-09-30T11:18:23.178+13:00Nowhere do I say this country hasn't got a dri...Nowhere do I say this country hasn't got a drinking problem. There is probably not a country in the Western world that doesn't have a drinking problem. All I am saying is that it has been grossly overstated, and that most New Zealanders are perfectly capable of drinking responsibly without being nannied. <br /><br />I abhor the sort of behaviour you describe but have to wonder about the circles you move in if that's the common reaction when you tell people you don't want a drink. My advice would be to find some new friends.Karl du Fresnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05054853925940134404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-70313594861285912002010-09-30T10:19:41.433+13:002010-09-30T10:19:41.433+13:00I don't drink. For serious medical reasons.On ...I don't drink. For serious medical reasons.On an average evening out I will have at least half a dozen people approach me, sometimes sober, sometimes in various states of drunkenness and ask or sometimes yell where's your drink? And look at me incredulously when I reply that I don’t. I am stared at, pointed at and often feel the need to explain, in detail, the reason why. Often, I feel the need to lie and say I’m the sober driver for the evening. You cannot tell me Karl Du Frense, that this country does not have a drinking problem when it becomes abnormal not to drink, when those who don’t drink becomes outcasts, or even freaks.Bellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17479835475432677563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-75784008818275050932010-09-24T14:33:19.568+12:002010-09-24T14:33:19.568+12:00Mr du Fresne,
As it is Friday, my copy of the Li...Mr du Fresne,<br /><br />As it is Friday, my copy of the Listener has been retrieved from its hiding place on top of the fridge giving me the opportunity to read your article.<br /><br />I am not going to disagree with you in any way. In fact I am somewhat disappointed that you left out what might be seen as possible solutions.<br /><br />We agree that the "booze problem" exists, driven as you have said by the neo-wowsers whose consumption of alchohol is limited to that tablespoon of brandy in the Christmas pud; nothing more than that. Oh, that and perhaps the occasional wetting of the lips with the communion wine.<br /><br />As I see it, there are two problems to be resolved.<br /><br />The first is the consequence of lowering the drinking age. What to do about that? It might be interesting to see how many of the neo-wowsers suddenly picked up "NO YOU DON'T" signs if it were proposed to reinstate age 20. Oh, and at that point I can not help but wonder how many of the neo-wowser camp support the reduction of the alchohol level for driving from .08 to .05 - I suspect quite a few would sit firmly against that idea...<br /><br />It is like so many of these social problems. It is the few, the bottom 5% or perhaps 10%, whose excesses will spoil the enjoyment of a good pinot (gris or noir) with a meal out.<br /><br />So, rather than wailing in the wind about the neo-wowsers spoiling our fun we should give them some real suggestions on how to handle the problem; that basement 10%.<br /><br />My first reaction is to keep it cheap. Providing drinking drivers with free board and lodging for a week, ten days or a few hours would cost too much. Besides, I (and I suspect a large number of others) might appreciate the opportunity to voice our displeasure in person and on their person.<br /><br />If you dig back to the time of Dickens there was a common punishment for a wide range of social misdemeanours perhaps or not including public drunkenness.<br /><br />I can but wonder how many recidivist drunks and louts there would be around town after a spell of a couple hours - or days for the very worst - in the town stocks. Rotten tomatos, very mouldy fruit, very smelly eggs... it could even end with a wash-down under a firehose. User pays? Bring it on!! Fifty cents for a bag of eggs...The probligohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17882103150181414348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-86403645447346046352010-09-21T17:42:26.825+12:002010-09-21T17:42:26.825+12:00Karl, just read your article in the listener, love...Karl, just read your article in the listener, loved it. I never understood where the idea came from that NZ has now degenerated into a drunken murderous lot of hoons. As far as I can tell, we always have been. In fact, we seem to be getting better.<br /><br />I was also impressed with Joyce's ability to stick by his decision in the face of some dodgy statistics. David Farrar has also raised a good point about how many of those between .05 and .08 were over their age limit. (ie under 25).<br /><br />But, Joyce will never redeem himself in my eyes from the motorbike levies rort, for which he hold responsibility along with Nick Smith. It's costing me $585 a year now to register my Ducati 900 ss. The result will be that I shall now ride the hell out of it just to get my money's worth. That's not gonna reduce the motorbike road toll!!<br /><br />He should have divulged his dangerous driving conviction for knocking a motor cyclist off during the ACC levies debate. He was probably too happy to see Smith take the heat.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13848065722424802753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-91846108336071345522010-09-21T16:45:22.978+12:002010-09-21T16:45:22.978+12:00... and this is what politic real in NZ has been r...... and this is what <i>politic real</i> in NZ has been reduced to - a poll-driven popularity contest.<br /><br />It was bad enough with the previous government; the jonkey is an absolute expert at formulating and expressing policy in a way that leaves every door open. Is it democracy? Probably.<br /><br />How sad...<br /><br />Oh, and I agree; leave my bottle of wine alone. Mind you it would not take a great deal to set up a cooperative to brew our own, somewhere in the hills behind Hokonui, or Kaueranga, or up the Parapara somewheres...The probligohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17882103150181414348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-87906274361429066152010-09-21T16:22:46.200+12:002010-09-21T16:22:46.200+12:00Bearhunter, Yet the wine industry would probably s...Bearhunter, Yet the wine industry would probably suffer the most from a ban on alcohol sales in supermarkets, a major goal of Sellman who has sensationally labelled them "drug pushers".Lindsay Mitchellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04437693272797130833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-86404002997282539542010-09-21T11:51:08.006+12:002010-09-21T11:51:08.006+12:00I'm looking forward to next week's Listene...I'm looking forward to next week's Listener, which will, no doubt, carry a lengthy diatribe from Doug Sellman denouncing you as a lackey of the "Booze Barons" and fulminating against your clearly biased reportage. <br /><br />And to ask my favourite question about the liquor debate in NZ yet again, how come the wine industry gets such a free ride in this debate? Not that I am against the wine industry; far from it, I am an enthusiastic supporter of it. But it always seems to be beer and spirits that get the bad press.Bearhunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06927373498537533968noreply@blogger.com