tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post5290232810051694041..comments2024-03-26T10:03:51.827+13:00Comments on Karl du Fresne: All that's missing is megalomaniaKarl du Fresnehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05054853925940134404noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-78020570291244652172014-01-29T11:44:12.228+13:002014-01-29T11:44:12.228+13:00You seem to be saying that because South Africa is...You seem to be saying that because South Africa is a mess (which I don't dispute), it was fine that a racist white regime kept the black majority in subjugation. That's an interesting view. And please show me where I advocated military intervention, or even sanctions. I don't pretend to advance any pat remedies.<br /><br />While you're about it, you might do me the courtesy of identifying yourself. Karl du Fresnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05054853925940134404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-48968170612405799892014-01-28T21:28:59.371+13:002014-01-28T21:28:59.371+13:00Karl
Thank you for responding to my questions.
...Karl<br /><br />Thank you for responding to my questions. <br /><br />You say: <br /><br />“but I also think the evidence is overwhelming and incontrovertible that wherever you go in the world, the freest and most prosperous countries are democracies.”<br /><br />Well, yes of course, that is absolutely true. But democracy is the fruit of a thousand years of a people influenced by Christianity, the enlightenment, and Roman and Greek thought and culture. <br /><br />Experience tells us that you cannot simply impose elections on any people and expect the same results as seen today in Britain, Europe, the USA, Australia and New Zealand.<br /><br />For example, how did democracy work out recently for Egypt? How did it work out for Iraq? <br /><br />Not all cultures are ready for democratic rule. <br /><br />“It strikes me as almost a reverse form of cultural conceit that anyone can complacently sit back in New Zealand, where we enjoy rights and freedoms undreamed of by most of the world's population, and tell ourselves that it doesn't matter if other countries in the Pacific don't share those benefits because that would be imposing our ways on them.”<br /><br />I don’t suggest that it doesn’t matter, but what action do you recommend? – More sanctions or perhaps we send in a frigate, assuming we still have one? I ask again, do we have the right to mandate by economic or military force a form of governance on a sovereign nation state we think is best for them?<br /><br />Tell me again, who is conceited here?<br /><br />“where we know something bad is happening, but look the other way because we don't want to get involved.”<br /><br />Karl, tell me where have we ‘got involved’ by means of sanctions and/or military intervention and have produced an excellent outcome, and I’ll show you a dozen examples of failure and a potentially worse outcome than if we had stayed away.<br /><br />“for example, against white South Africa in the 1980s, where international pressure was undoubtedly effective in ending white minority rule. Should we have kept our noses out of their business too? “<br /><br />Great example there Karl, Wikipedia presently rates South Africa as the ‘rape capital of the world’.<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_South_Africa<br /><br />Their murder rate is 4.5 times the global average:<br /><br />https://africacheck.org/factsheets/factsheet-south-africas-official-crime-statistics-for-201213/<br /><br />By any measure democratic South Africa has descended into a violent basket case of rape, violence and crime. But it’s democratic hellhole, so I suppose that makes it all right, and all the protesters of the 1980’s can rest easy in their beds because they have made the world a better place?<br /><br />Here is a reality check. You personally have a better chance of brining behavioral change to your feral neighbors than we as a nation have to a remote sovereign nation state like Fiji or Tonga or South Africa for that matter. <br /><br />But it is easier for us to righteously pontificate about Fiji than it is to go next door.<br />Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-35846725656452695492014-01-28T09:38:58.993+13:002014-01-28T09:38:58.993+13:00Let me get this straight, Brendan. You seem to be ...Let me get this straight, Brendan. You seem to be suggesting that it's no concern of ours when a near neighbour, with which we have had a close association for decades, becomes a military dictatorship (because effectively that's what Fiji is). I agree there's a discussion to be had about whether some cultures take readily to democracy, but I also think the evidence is overwhelming and incontrovertible that wherever you go in the world, the freest and most prosperous countries are democracies. It strikes me as almost a reverse form of cultural conceit that anyone can complacently sit back in New Zealand, where we enjoy rights and freedoms undreamed of by most of the world's population, and tell ourselves that it doesn't matter if other countries in the Pacific don't share those benefits because that would be imposing our ways on them. It would take more time and space than I've got right now even to begin exploring the full implications of that, but it occurs to me that it has parallels with what sociologists called the Kitty Genovese syndrome - where we know something bad is happening, but look the other way because we don't want to get involved.<br /><br />Taken to extremes, your approach suggests we should give Robert Mugabe and President Assad a break because they know what's best for their own people. Tell that to the Zimbabweans and Syrians.<br /><br />As for your suggestion that this is selective moralising, I would simply say that as a relatively tiny country in a far corner of the world, New Zealand can make little impression on a major power such as China; but we have had a long and close relationship with Fiji and probably can exert a positive influence there. Horses for courses, as it were.<br /><br />Incidentally, I didn't advocate sanctions against Fiji. But I do think there's a sound case for applying sanctions in certain instances - for example, against white South Africa in the 1980s, where international pressure was undoubtedly effective in ending white minority rule. Should we have kept our noses out of their business too? (There's your cue, Rivonia Boy.)<br /><br /><br />Karl du Fresnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05054853925940134404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8442430064359197279.post-84141021311800667372014-01-27T16:53:20.643+13:002014-01-27T16:53:20.643+13:00Karl
Do we presume to know what's best for ou...Karl<br /><br />Do we presume to know what's best for our neighbours who live just down the road? Do we expect them to conform to our ways of doing things just because it's our preference?<br /><br />Would you appreciate the imposition of 'their ways' on you, just because they felt you would be better off?<br /><br />No?<br /><br />Why then do we presume to know what's best for Fiji, or Tonga? Why do we want to impose our system of Government on them, even to the extent of applying sanctions if they don't conform to our expectations?<br /><br />How's that policy working for the USA in the Middle East?<br /><br />And why are we so selective in our moralising? I see no desire to impose trade sanctions on China, Our Government is not rushing to give them lectures on democracy, or banning their sports people from competing in New Zealand.<br /><br />???<br /><br />Best to leave them to sort it out for themselves, and to offer assistance only when requested. We might be surprised with the respect that approach engenders.Brendan McNeillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02741263914308842497noreply@blogger.com